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More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:58 pm

Yesterday, myself and some others submitted links to several Reddit subs for the $1000 prize thread:
announces/1-000-bitcoin-prize-for-the-m ... -t265.html

These submissions were instantly upvoted to the top of /r/BitcoinXT, /r/Bitcoin_uncensored, and some others, but didn't seem to receive any votes for /r/Bitcoin

Today I figured out why:
Image

A few days ago, the same thing seems to have happened to Charlie Shrem's thread as well.

This is just more censorship of anything that is a separate voice from the other forums that are all controlled by the same group.

So sad.

Let's show them that the Bitcoin community can be better than that, by making this forum a bastion of free and open discussion of Bitcoin and related topics. I know it is hard with so much censorship going on, but please do your best to tell your other bitcoin friends about this forum where topics can be freely discussed in an open manner.

Thank you all.
Last edited by rogerver on Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:09 pm

Here is a previous example of the censorship on /r/Bitcoin of my article on bigger blocks:

https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/638892910142861313

I'd love to see just how quickly a submission of this thread gets banned from /r/Bitcoin as well.
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:17 pm

the other 2 news sources are user friendly & liberal....until you have another opinion and get censored :D
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:25 pm

When only the account that posted the link can see the link, it means that that account has been shadowbanned. The same thing happens with comments. You can post a comment and YOU can see it in the thread, but no one else can. It's a way to ban spammers without them knowing it until they realize that none of their comments or submissions are getting votes or replies.

The worst thing is that it's probably not even worth posting this thread to /r/Bitcoin, because it will quickly get removed. Most likely they filter it out based on certain keywords as well, so it might not even get posted at all. Best way would be to post an image of the proof (not an actual link to this site, since it will probably get filtered) and title it in a way that it doesn't use any keywords like "censorship", "theymos", "banning" etc. Also time the post so that no mods are awake, if that is possible. Probably will get removed quickly though :(

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:34 pm

The great thing about bitcoin is that it doesn't enable the tyranny of petty dictators.
Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Please visit www.thezeitgeistmovement.com and www.thevenusproject.com.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:48 pm

Fortunately this forum has a great URL -- hopefully people new to Bitcoin find this place first. The censorship at r/bitcoin and (I assume) bitcointalk is embarrassing.

Reddit is a lost cause. Impossible to surplant r/bitcoin as the most obvious place to go to discuss Bitcoin.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:17 pm

Thanks for this forum!

bitcoin.com for the win! :lol:

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:55 pm

This has been happening since the XT drama. Most of my submissions never appeared for other members, they were silently censored.

A few examples, these posts never made it to the "new" category, and were just silently censored: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/commen ... out_gavin/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/commen ... or_crisis/

The censorship happened when people started bashing about Bitcoin, and when (consequently) the market was plunging. Only positive news were not censored. This is what I posted in reply to this censorship, but I had to post it on other subs:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncens ... are_bears/ (censored on /r/bitcoin)

It seems now the mods are approving news that could have a negative impact on BTC. However the sub is still heavily filtered. All Bitcoin skeptics or people who have the guts to raise their voice when something is wrong have been banned or simply left the sub. Now this place is more than ever filled with fanatics.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:38 am

As the moderator of https://www.reddit.com/r/btc we ran a "What does bitcoin mean to you" contest where the winnings were 1btc (Has since been won). 1 post made it to r/bitcoin describing the contest, and it was immediately removed. Lol we got the message right away and just havent even bothered to post there.

Its no secret r/bitcoin's power comes from the people that use it on a regular basis, despite what theymos "may" think. One thing that surprises us is that the blatant censorship has had almost no effect on its userbase.

Thats why its important to frequent many subreddits, many forums/message boards and many news sites in order to ensure one single entity doesnt have a monopoly on thought.

Sad, however with forums like forum.bitcoin.com existing as well as others, the power theymos has will eventually dilute.

I have no ill will for theymos, however I do happen to strongly disagree with how he handled the xt debate (not the first instance of censorship). I personally believe that with enough discussion, a general consensus will always emerge. The power that theymos currently has can be chipped away until it doesnt exist.

Of course he still has time to learn from the profoundly bad reaction he had. Lets hope for the best while still taking action to stop the worst.
"Consensus Can Not Be Obtained By Monopolizing Thought" ~Random Guy

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:11 am

Fortunately this forum has a great URL -- hopefully people new to Bitcoin find this place first. The censorship at r/bitcoin and (I assume) bitcointalk is embarrassing.

Reddit is a lost cause. Impossible to surplant r/bitcoin as the most obvious place to go to discuss Bitcoin.
yes, it is a valuable URL (bitcoin.com) and i guess over time this could be a great place for discussions :)

the network effect is hard to fight (reddit etc) but with this new forum and time bitcoin.com will be a good alternative.

@YouCanDoAnything

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---------------
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Image
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:27 pm

The moderation occurred on r/bitcoin at a moment where it was literally flooded with big block whiners and core dev haters that promoted a protocol that contained a highly controversial and consensus critical change. That made a lot of people exhausted and uncomfortable. Forums are supposed to be a friendly place to think, share and discuss, and attempting to force a change through pressure, disruption and mobbing is unhealthy.

This all started when an influential developer (influence he got from a former position at the bitcoin foundation) suddenly decided some irrelevant change was urgent and started lobbying users and the ecosystem through populist tactics to support an incompatible software he and his friend controlled. This is the opposite of the Bitcoin consensus spirit. This software propagation war was very unhealthy, because it incentivized other core devs to defend their position and lobby too, wasting enormous time communicating instead of solving problems. These few weeks were a big waste for the Bitcoin community, many here don't seem to realize that.

Theymos's moderation was a defensive mechanism to the social attacks the community was facing. And he did a very good job, since now, r/bitcoin is friendly and peaceful place discuss and share thoughts. When you walk on the street discussing important things with a friend and someone starts following you yelling nonsense in a microphone, you may be patient for sometime but at the end of the day, you will censor him.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:30 pm

The moderation occurred on r/bitcoin at a moment where it was literally flooded with big block whiners and core dev haters that promoted a protocol that contained a highly controversial and consensus critical change. That made a lot of people exhausted and uncomfortable. Forums are supposed to be a friendly place to think, share and discuss, and attempting to force a change through pressure, disruption and mobbing is unhealthy.
Reddit is built in such a way that posts which are considered "bad" are downvoted by users and therefore never see the light of day on the front page. If the majority of people are against something, that post will get downvoted and there will be no problem. This is assuming all people are honest and there's no bot automatically upvoting posts, which of course can happen, but I personally never saw that on /r/bitcoin.
This all started when an influential developer (influence he got from a former position at the bitcoin foundation) suddenly decided some irrelevant change was urgent and started lobbying users and the ecosystem through populist tactics to support an incompatible software he and his friend controlled. This is the opposite of the Bitcoin consensus spirit.
Saying that "this is the opposite of the Bitcoin consensus spirit" is just wrong. Consensus is the opinion of the majority of users and nothing else. If the majority wants XT then XT should not be put aside.

Also I run an XT node and can confirm that it is not "incompatible software" since it works perfectly fine. If changes are made to XT which makes it incompatible without the consensus of the network, I will instantly switch back to Core and I can guarantee you that everyone else will as well.
This software propagation war was very unhealthy, because it incentivized other core devs to defend their position and lobby too, wasting enormous time communicating instead of solving problems. These few weeks were a big waste for the Bitcoin community, many here don't seem to realize that.
I have to respectfully disagree. I think this "war" was a very good thing, even though it might seem that it wasted time. We now understand the danger of having a few people controlling the major forums and that it can lead to a very skewed debate. Who knows how many other proposals they have censored, or they will censor in the future? They have the power to remove what they think is "incorrect" before we can even see it.
Theymos's moderation was a defensive mechanism to the social attacks the community was facing. And he did a very good job, since now, r/bitcoin is friendly and peaceful place discuss and share thoughts.
Look at the first two posts in this thread by Roger. Think about that users in /r/bitcoin won't be told that this forum exists, or that this $1000 competition exists. Do you honestly think that is good? The moderators actively makes sure that their users stays with them by censoring all competition and pretending like everything is fine. This is literally dictatorship and propaganda.
When you walk on the street discussing important things with a friend and someone starts following you yelling nonsense in a microphone, you may be patient for sometime but at the end of the day, you will censor him.
When you walk on the street discussing important things with a friend and someone starts following you trying to cover your mouth, you may be patient for sometime but at the end of the day, you will have to move to a different city because you are unable to tell anyone that you can't talk.


Wow, sorry for the wall of text. It's actually not that much but it looks like it is because of the quotes. For the record I think it's good that you have come to this forum to debate about the current status of /r/bitcoin! We all think differently and it's good to actually discuss our thoughts and try to see it from the others perspective. As of right now I think most people will argue against you since it seems like people that are against XT have not come to this forum yet. Please don't be discouraged by this, instead try to make others come here as well and defend your point!

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:21 pm

Reddit is built in such a way that posts which are considered "bad" are downvoted by users and therefore never see the light of day on the front page. If the majority of people are against something, that post will get downvoted and there will be no problem. This is assuming all people are honest and there's no bot automatically upvoting posts, which of course can happen, but I personally never saw that on /r/bitcoin.
The number of nodes or the number of users supporting one or the other side is irrelevant to the discussion, see my next point on consensus.
Consensus is the opinion of the majority of users and nothing else. If the majority wants XT then XT should not be put aside.
No, that is not what consensus means. Consensus is not users voting where the majority wins. The Consensus decision process, is a process to accept a change only if everyone (in the technical community) agrees on it. That is how FOSS projects make decisions (with one exception I have in mind). The maintainer ultimately decides if consensus is reached, in case a minority of developers block the process for obvious inappropriate reasons. And for now, the Core maintainer does not see consensus, but rather widespread disagreement on bigger blocks.

This consensus definition aside, I feel it's really important that the technical community has the final word, because users are naturally incentivized to request quicker confirmation times, lower fees and better user experience, disregarding technical risks that may compromise the fundamental properties of Bitcoin.

Generally speaking, I believe user experience should be dealt with by wallets (& services) and upper layer payment protocols, not by the Bitcoin core devs. Core devs should only focus on security, censorship-resistance, privacy, and scalability. User experience was never part of TCP/IP's design. But this is another topic and my very own opinion.
Also I run an XT node and can confirm that it is not "incompatible software" since it works perfectly fine. If changes are made to XT which makes it incompatible without the consensus of the network, I will instantly switch back to Core and I can guarantee you that everyone else will as well.
And if 75% XT blocks are mined, all of the Core nodes will become incompatible with the XT nodes within 1 week. So to frame it differently, it's a compatible software that transmutes into an incompatible software under certain network conditions.
Wow, sorry for the wall of text. (...) Please don't be discouraged by this, instead try to make others come here as well and defend your point!
No pb, and I appreciate your answers, even if we don't agree on everything or anything.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:09 am

Theymos's moderation was a defensive mechanism to the social attacks the community was facing. And he did a very good job, since now, r/bitcoin is friendly and peaceful place discuss and share thoughts.
Joseph Goebbels would have been proud.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:32 pm

Theymos's moderation was a defensive mechanism to the social attacks the community was facing. And he did a very good job, since now, r/bitcoin is friendly and peaceful place discuss and share thoughts.
Yes, our Great Leader defensively fought against evil saboteurs and terrorists trying to poison our minds with wrong ideas. He did a very good job, since now North Korea is a friendly and peaceful place to discuss and share thoughts.

Do you even realise how warped that sounds? He basically gagged half of the community and drove many people into exile.

Also I'd like to point it out here that Theymos disagrees with you about his objectives (He surely knows himself better than you, right?). He has publicly stated that he uses his power as the moderator on /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk to (1)censor and (2)create FUD to (3)further his financial and ideological interests. He sees Bitcoin XT as a threat to valuation of his holdings.
<theymos> XT is wrong because it splits the Bitcoin economy. This is damaging to Bitcoin, and I want Bitcoin to suceed for ideological reasons, so that's no good. In the long-term it may (3)damage the value of my BTC, which is no good. I also oppose this sort of fork from the perspective of "Bitcoin's philosophy"
...
<theymos> You must be naive if you think it'll have no effect. I've moderated forums since long before Bitcoin (some quite large), and I know how moderation affects people. (1)Long-term, banning XT from /r/Bitcoin will hurt XT's chances to hijack Bitcoin. There's still a chance, but it's smaller. (This is improved by the simultaneous action on bitcointalk.org, bitcoin.it, and bitcoin.org)
...
<theymos> They're the market. (3)If a big enough chunk of them are vehemently against XT (or maybe just nervous about the whole thing), this reduces the chance that the businesses that depend up on this market will adopt XT, or at least not so blindly as they might've before.
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comm ... ts_people/

I actually share the concerns about my investment with Theymos, but I see the status quo at Core as a threat instead of XT. Without a clear and predictable increase in blocksize limit (which besides from XT is nowhere to be seen) there won't be further investments into BTC (why to invest in something which can't grow?). However I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.

Irony in all this is that it's not XT, but Theymos, who has managed to split the bitcoin community. I have nothing against supporters and developers of Bitcoin Core, but as it is, I have been prevented from openly discussing with them on main bitcoin forums.
Last edited by ladoga on Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:30 pm

I wish this forum already had "like" buttons so I could like the last two posts.

Especially the line about Joseph Goebbels being proud.

I think all of us must feel so relieved that finally we will have a place where people can speak openly.
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:46 am

No, that is not what consensus means (...)
Fair enough, seems like I had the wrong definition of consensus in this context. I see now how XT can be seen as threat to the "consensus spirit". However, due to Bitcoin being completely open source I think we will see more and more alternative "implementations" of Bitcoin. Now since this is seen as a threat I can sort of understand why this has been censored on the major forums, even though I think it's a very bad decision.
This consensus definition aside, I feel it's really important that the technical community has the final word, because users are naturally incentivized to request quicker confirmation times, lower fees and better user experience, disregarding technical risks that may compromise the fundamental properties of Bitcoin.
I actually agree with this. It's a nice thought to have users make requests and then a technical community decides if the request is feasible or not. But the problem I see is that this community (meaning the Core devs) does not really have that control. In the end, the ones controlling the network are the miners and users. What happens when the technical community and the miners disagree? The miners and users win in the end, since they will make their own implementation and run it, and if they have majority they will leave the rest behind.

Now, in a perfect world this would never happen and people would trust the technical community without doubt, but the world is far from perfect. Everyone will have their own reason to want something and if enough people think in the same way they can implement it without consensus, and force the rest to join them. One solution for this is the one that is in use right now: censoring. To be honest it's fairly effective, but I think it's a double-edged sword. Eventually it will become too much and people will take action against those who censored them, which can make the situation even worse.

I think this is a big problem for Bitcoin and decentralized systems in general. What can even be done to deal with this? It's a bit ironic how the openness of Bitcoin is both it's best and worst feature :)

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:22 am

1. reddit is supposed to be about freedom and unicorn farts and rainbows and it's a shame that theymos has to go and screw it all up

2. people will find bitcoin.com first...but new TLDs are coming, just ask godaddy 8-)

3. LONG LIVE https://forum.bitcoin.com!!!

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:50 am

The moderation occurred on r/bitcoin at a moment where it was literally flooded with big block whiners and core dev haters that promoted a protocol that contained a highly controversial and consensus critical change. That made a lot of people exhausted and uncomfortable. Forums are supposed to be a friendly place to think, share and discuss, and attempting to force a change through pressure, disruption and mobbing is unhealthy.

This all started when an influential developer (influence he got from a former position at the bitcoin foundation) suddenly decided some irrelevant change was urgent and started lobbying users and the ecosystem through populist tactics to support an incompatible software he and his friend controlled. This is the opposite of the Bitcoin consensus spirit. This software propagation war was very unhealthy, because it incentivized other core devs to defend their position and lobby too, wasting enormous time communicating instead of solving problems. These few weeks were a big waste for the Bitcoin community, many here don't seem to realize that.

Theymos's moderation was a defensive mechanism to the social attacks the community was facing. And he did a very good job, since now, r/bitcoin is friendly and peaceful place discuss and share thoughts. When you walk on the street discussing important things with a friend and someone starts following you yelling nonsense in a microphone, you may be patient for sometime but at the end of the day, you will censor him.
yes where ever the party is, someone will crash it. i can't speak to thermos's habits or ideals, because i never hung out at /r/bitcoin nor bct, but you are dead on with this narrative, especially about how software devs need to prove things are technically sound rather than immediately shout from the rooftops - with no proof, have you, gavin, nor you mr. hearn, yes you with your lame attempts at forking bitcoin - that this is the way things will be down, now and forever, obey

people will skew the arguments in their favor always. some believe that's what this place is, or will become. just another echo chamber

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:26 pm

I just stumbled on this forum but have been using reddit for a long time, and it saddens me to see how they try to manipulate posts with shadowbans or downvote bots. I would understand if they do that to spammers, and that's the main reason shadowbans exist, but manipulating discussion and shadowbanning people who don't spam but contribute to the forum, but just cause they have a different view on stuff than the mods of the subreddit, is just wrong. That's not what reddit is about and not why it was created in the first place.

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:34 pm

Even more proof of censorship today.

The exact same news story submitted twice to /r/Bitcoin
Once with a link to Twitter, and then the article. The other linked directly to the article on news.Bitcoin.com

Image

This seems like clear proof of /r/Bitcoin censoring any links to Bitcoin.com news stories.
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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:36 pm

Its comical at this point (not in a good way).

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:55 am

Image
********************************************
More informations about Bitcoin and scaling BTC on

bitcoin.org/en/

https://bitcoincore.org/en/2015/12/23/c ... reases-faq

&
reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/

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Re: More proof of censorship from /r/Bitcoin

Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:36 pm

Unreasonable censorship is what really turned me away from Reddit and some other forums, some of which have reached dictatorship levels.
Hoping that this one will keep respecting freedom of speech.

After all Bitcoin is about decentralization of power :)

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