Bigger blocks = a more secure and diverse Bitcoin.

[rogerver]

What do you think of my chain of logic here?
If you disagree, tell me which step and why.

https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/742745333784936452

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

What do you think of my chain of logic here?
If you disagree, tell me which step and why.

https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/742745333784936452

Your logic is a win-win.

What does Mr. John McAfee have to say about it?

[BitcoinXio]

Your logic is sound Roger. There are many nuances to this, and there is no exact science to it. There is a lot to take into consideration. For example, you say Bigger blocks = more tx capacity = more users. Just because there is room for more transactions, doesn't mean there will be more users. It's more that the capacity allows for more users. More users won't come unless there are more businesses using and promoting bitcoin to people who aren't aware of it or don't realize the benefits yet. Some businesses have been turned off by the entire block size debate, the epic battles and not being able to work with core developers. Bitcoin is open-source technology, but the current dev team has created a walled garden around it so that outsiders that don't fit within their mindset are shunned and trolled. Eventually people/businesses won't want to deal with the toxic environment, and will leave.

[JalToorey]

There is a problem, if you jeopardize the perception of a politically stable future for bitcoin, it would be absurd to suggest that the markets would rally around such instability.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Your logic is sound Roger. There are many nuances to this, and there is no exact science to it. There is a lot to take into consideration. For example, you say Bigger blocks = more tx capacity = more users. Just because there is room for more transactions, doesn't mean there will be more users. It's more that the capacity allows for more users. More users won't come unless there are more businesses using and promoting bitcoin to people who aren't aware of it or don't realize the benefits yet. Some businesses have been turned off by the entire block size debate, the epic battles and not being able to work with core developers. Bitcoin is open-source technology, but the current dev team has created a walled garden around it so that outsiders that don't fit within their mindset are shunned and trolled. Eventually people/businesses won't want to deal with the toxic environment, and will leave.

I am integrating Ethereum to my businesses and telling my clients to do the same. This is a perfect example of "turning businesses away from Bitcoin". This kills organic long-term growth. This kills the stability of Bitcoin's price. Overall, it is slowly killing Bitcoin.

Lately, we have questionable trading inflating the price of Bitcoin. This is a disaster in the making. I have seen it in the stock market too many times to count. When investors signal it's time to cash-out, they sell and the price tanks. No amount of brokers will be able to hold this wall. Now, you're left with a market that scares away investors because of its past history.

What a silly state of affairs!

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

There is a problem, if you jeopardize the perception of a politically stable future for bitcoin, it would be absurd to suggest that the markets would rally around such instability.

Let's tell it how it really is, governments would like to control Bitcoin because then they can easily capture funds from businesses that use Bitcoin for activities they deem illegal. They're tired of going around in circles only to lose.

It is a cash grab, to steal money and feed the ego that "something is being done".

[JalToorey]

Lately, we have questionable trading inflating the price of Bitcoin. This is a disaster in the making. I have seen it in the stock market too many times to count. When investors signal it's time to cash-out, they sell and the price tanks. No amount of brokers will be able to hold this wall. Now, you're left with a market that scares away investors because of its past history.

You don't know anything about how stock markets work do you? Listen, "inflating" price, is a horrible choice of words.

Let's tell it how it really is, governments would like to control Bitcoin because then they can easily capture funds from businesses that use Bitcoin for activities they deem illegal. They're tired of going around in circles only to lose.

It is a cash grab, to steal money and feed the ego that "something is being done".

Firstly, nobody here believes governments can or will ever be able to "control bitcoin". As far as our governments capturing funds from businesses doing things that governments deem illegal, this is the very purpose governments exist and it is how we are able to function as a society (who's freedom is growing and evolving over time).

...a cash grab, to steal money...

You are just putting cliches together nothing is actually being said here.

and feed the ego that "something is being done".

No no for real, law enforcement and governments are a very important and crucial part of our society. I don't think you understand what they are for.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Lately, we have questionable trading inflating the price of Bitcoin. This is a disaster in the making. I have seen it in the stock market too many times to count. When investors signal it's time to cash-out, they sell and the price tanks. No amount of brokers will be able to hold this wall. Now, you're left with a market that scares away investors because of its past history.

You don't know anything about how stock markets work do you? Listen, "inflating" price, is a horrible choice of words.

Let's tell it how it really is, governments would like to control Bitcoin because then they can easily capture funds from businesses that use Bitcoin for activities they deem illegal. They're tired of going around in circles only to lose.

It is a cash grab, to steal money and feed the ego that "something is being done".

Firstly, nobody here believes governments can or will ever be able to "control bitcoin". As far as our governments capturing funds from businesses doing things that governments deem illegal, this is the very purpose governments exist and it is how we are able to function as a society (who's freedom is growing and evolving over time).

...a cash grab, to steal money...

You are just putting cliches together nothing is actually being said here.

and feed the ego that "something is being done".

No no for real, law enforcement and governments are a very important and crucial part of our society. I don't think you understand what they are for.

You don't know anything about how stock markets work do you? Listen, "inflating" price, is a horrible choice of words.

If we calculated the market-cap of all the companies I have worked with in the markets from the US to Germany and everywhere else, it would be in the tens of billions. I have personally contributed hundreds of millions, if not an easy billion of investor capital. When people ask me, I say the figure ~$400M because that is what I could easily keep track of.

(who's freedom is growing and evolving over time)

Who's freedom is growing, are you mad?

You are just putting cliches together

Cliches? I recall hundreds of millions in Bitcoin already seized and auctioned off to banks for a profit.

I don't think you understand what they are for.

I understand what they are for, yet I am confused as to how they are helping?

[JalToorey]

If we calculated the market-cap of all the companies I have worked with in the markets from the US to Germany and everywhere else, it would be in the tens of billions. I have personally contributed hundreds of millions, if not an easy billion of investor capital. When people ask me, I say the figure ~$400M because that is what I could easily keep track of.

Did you think I would believe you here? I DO believe you are a bad poker player though and are counting your losses as money gained/invested.

Who's freedom is growing, are you mad?

We are FAR more free than the peoples of yesterday. Don't be silly.

Cliches?

Yes cliches

I recall hundreds of millions in Bitcoin already seized and auctioned off to banks for a profit.

Yes this is how law and capitalism works in relation to governance.

I understand what they are for, yet I am confused as to how they are helping?

No you don't understand what they are for, because you gave examples of how they are helping.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

If we calculated the market-cap of all the companies I have worked with in the markets from the US to Germany and everywhere else, it would be in the tens of billions. I have personally contributed hundreds of millions, if not an easy billion of investor capital. When people ask me, I say the figure ~$400M because that is what I could easily keep track of.

Did you think I would believe you here? I DO believe you are a bad poker player though and are counting your losses as money gained/invested.

Who's freedom is growing, are you mad?

We are FAR more free than the peoples of yesterday. Don't be silly.

Cliches?

Yes cliches

I recall hundreds of millions in Bitcoin already seized and auctioned off to banks for a profit.

Yes this is how law and capitalism works in relation to governance.

I understand what they are for, yet I am confused as to how they are helping?

No you don't understand what they are for, because you gave examples of how they are helping.

Did you think I would believe you here?

I don't care what anyone thinks. This is not a game of poker.

We are FAR more free than the peoples of yesterday

We have far less freedom.

because you gave examples of how they are helping.

Wars make money, seldom do they provide any real peace.

If you think your government is truly helping you, you are a lost soul. You were a lost soul when you became a lobbyist.

Maybe my opinion would be different if special agents weren't stealing Bitcoin or if governments didn't turn a blind eye on the billions stolen through religion.

Remember, there is no convincing me otherwise and so your time will be wasted.

[JalToorey]

Remember, there is no convincing me otherwise and so your time will be wasted.

I know its a waste of my time to try to convince you; But its helpful for others to see how irrational, illogical, and insincere you are.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Remember, there is no convincing me otherwise and so your time will be wasted.

I know its a waste of my time to try to convince you; But its helpful for others to see how irrational, illogical, and insincere you are.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, it is a free forum.

[JalToorey]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, it is a free forum.

Absolutely, and while you are giving your opinion, throwing out cliches, making outrageous claims, disrupting dialogue, and giving ridiculous statements like "I don't know what government is for"... other people are engaging in dialogue and attempting to come together through a common shared meaning.

You literally are wasting your time on forums, doing nothing for yourself (or anyone) but give yourself the IMPRESSION that you are doing something of value.

What happened in your life, that causes you to waste the scarce time available to you?

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, it is a free forum.

Absolutely, and while you are giving your opinion, throwing out cliches, making outrageous claims, disrupting dialogue, and giving ridiculous statements like "I don't know what government is for"... other people are engaging in dialogue and attempting to come together through a common shared meaning.

You literally are wasting your time on forums, doing nothing for yourself (or anyone) but give yourself the IMPRESSION that you are doing something of value.

What happened in your life, that causes you to waste the scarce time available to you?

I'll spend any amount of time throwing off a lobbyists game, especially when it relates to my business.

[JalToorey]

I'll spend any amount of time throwing off a lobbyists game, especially when it relates to my business.

You aren't capable of running a business. And I realize you will spend your time here, wasted on nothing but trolling. But I am asking you, what happened in your life, that causes you to waste the precious time you have, trolling a forum, not engaging in useful dialogue?

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

I'll spend any amount of time throwing off a lobbyists game, especially when it relates to my business.

You aren't capable of running a business. And I realize you will spend your time here, wasted on nothing but trolling. But I am asking you, what happened in your life, that causes you to waste the precious time you have, trolling a forum, not engaging in useful dialogue?

When you guys woke up and decided to cost me money.

[inBitweTrust]

What do you think of my chain of logic here?
If you disagree, tell me which step and why.

https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/742745333784936452

Your logic is flawed as it assumes that simply increasing capacity will allow for more users at a corresponding rate which isn't necessarily true. The extra capacity could quickly be filled by spam from attackers, naïve people not using bitcoin intelligently (EG.. No use of sendmany) , and services like gambling sites that will force new adopters to pay for their txs and burden the entire network by expecting free handouts. Simply increasing capacity alone without making bitcoin more scalable will weaken Bitcoins key selling point - Fungible , sovereign and immutable txs which is already under attack and many people are using alts because of this (Privacy alts / or alts that allow the user to mine PoW ). Bitcoin needs to address these difficult problems and raising capacity alone exacerbates them.

It is also naïve to assume that consumers are drawn to bitcoin because of the low fees. Credit and debit cards have 0 fees(some even give consumers cash back ), have instant confirmations , and are secure in the consumers mind when they spend. Bitcoin cannot compete here and never will be able to on the chain without payment channels.

We all want to raise capacity, but lets work on these problems together while addressing scalability at the same time.

[chopstick]

I think it's naive to assume that if we doubled tx capacity it would be all filled with "spam transactions" and "noobs". That is obviously patently false. If the blocksize were to be upgraded to 2mb, it would breathe new life into the community practically overnight. It's clearly a much needed change - not just for the network, but for our collective mental health and so the community can take a breather while we figure out how to solve all the other problems.

Right now I'm on localbitcoins and there are DOZENS of people complaining about Stuck transactions and Slow Confirmation times. These people don't know what's going on.

Fees have gone up from like 6 cents to 34 cents to be guaranteed to be sent quickly... This is absurd and it will DEFINITELY push people into altcoins.

Also, debit and credit cards do have fees. Everything you pay for online and at the store is like 3% more expensive to cover merchant costs. All the costs are passed onto the customer, of course. This is why many websites that accept Bitcoin will offer discounts for BTC purchases.

Massive on-chain scaling is not just possible, it's inevitable. Saying BTC can't compete without "payment channels" is, in my opinion, highly disingenuous. We were doing it just fine before transactions started getting stuck due to a refusal to implement scaling measures.

[LiteCoinGuy]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, it is a free forum.

Absolutely, and while you are giving your opinion, throwing out cliches, making outrageous claims, disrupting dialogue, and giving ridiculous statements like "I don't know what government is for"... other people are engaging in dialogue and attempting to come together through a common shared meaning.

You literally are wasting your time on forums, doing nothing for yourself (or anyone) but give yourself the IMPRESSION that you are doing something of value.

What happened in your life, that causes you to waste the scarce time available to you?

unfortunately iFixBTCmemoryIssues is making alot of accusations and baseless assumptions.


@iFixBTCmemoryIssues

iam not a "core guy" or "classic guy" or anything like that. i like to hear arguments and then i make my decisions. and sometimes i can even change my opinion based on good arguments.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

What do you think of my chain of logic here?
If you disagree, tell me which step and why.

https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/742745333784936452

Your logic is flawed as it assumes that simply increasing capacity will allow for more users at a corresponding rate which isn't necessarily true. The extra capacity could quickly be filled by spam from attackers, naïve people not using bitcoin intelligently (EG.. No use of sendmany) , and services like gambling sites that will force new adopters to pay for their txs and burden the entire network by expecting free handouts. Simply increasing capacity alone without making bitcoin more scalable will weaken Bitcoins key selling point - Fungible , sovereign and immutable txs which is already under attack and many people are using alts because of this (Privacy alts / or alts that allow the user to mine PoW ). Bitcoin needs to address these difficult problems and raising capacity alone exacerbates them.

It is also naïve to assume that consumers are drawn to bitcoin because of the low fees. Credit and debit cards have 0 fees(some even give consumers cash back ), have instant confirmations , and are secure in the consumers mind when they spend. Bitcoin cannot compete here and never will be able to on the chain without payment channels.

We all want to raise capacity, but lets work on these problems together while addressing scalability at the same time.

Nobody is going to use your system.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

I think it's naive to assume that if we doubled tx capacity it would be all filled with "spam transactions" and "noobs". That is obviously patently false. If the blocksize were to be upgraded to 2mb, it would breathe new life into the community practically overnight. It's clearly a much needed change - not just for the network, but for our collective mental health and so the community can take a breather while we figure out how to solve all the other problems.

Right now I'm on localbitcoins and there are DOZENS of people complaining about Stuck transactions and Slow Confirmation times. These people don't know what's going on.

Fees have gone up from like 6 cents to 34 cents to be guaranteed to be sent quickly... This is absurd and it will DEFINITELY push people into altcoins.

Also, debit and credit cards do have fees. Everything you pay for online and at the store is like 3% more expensive to cover merchant costs. All the costs are passed onto the customer, of course. This is why many websites that accept Bitcoin will offer discounts for BTC purchases.

Massive on-chain scaling is not just possible, it's inevitable. Saying BTC can't compete without "payment channels" is, in my opinion, highly disingenuous. We were doing it just fine before transactions started getting stuck due to a refusal to implement scaling measures.

The same guys who are attempting to change Bitcoin (Blockstream / Core) into some fairy-tale scame; 1) attacked our network 2) created a fee-market 3) caused transactions to delay 4) stealing from us.

These guys are scammers. When your business transacts millions of dollars, you look into what is causing the problems.

It is insane that we have such menaces involved at the protocol level and that's why I stopped using Core. I began using Classic and telling all of my clients to use it as well. Now, the Unlimited solution will take us far into the future and so I am committed to running that and working with my clients to migrate their nodes to Unlimited as well. It's a no-brainer really, Unlimited offers Bitcoin scaling and security all in 1 with-out changing the dynamics of Bitcoin. This is what you get from real developers that are not financially motivated to succeed personally from their implementation.

Anybody who thinks a bunch of broke, for profit guys working on your Bitcoin software is a good idea, guys living in cars as Adam Back put it, needs to give their head a shake. Guys who have reputations as scammers. You shouldn't be letting a bunch of thieves work on your software. My clients said the same thing and I will say it as well.

"We are the businesses that run the software and we're saying we don't want your new solution."

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, it is a free forum.

Absolutely, and while you are giving your opinion, throwing out cliches, making outrageous claims, disrupting dialogue, and giving ridiculous statements like "I don't know what government is for"... other people are engaging in dialogue and attempting to come together through a common shared meaning.

You literally are wasting your time on forums, doing nothing for yourself (or anyone) but give yourself the IMPRESSION that you are doing something of value.

What happened in your life, that causes you to waste the scarce time available to you?

unfortunately iFixBTCmemoryIssues is making alot of accusations and baseless assumptions.


@iFixBTCmemoryIssues

iam not a "core guy" or "classic guy" or anything like that. i like to hear arguments and then i make my decisions. and sometimes i can even change my opinion based on good arguments.

Your advice is terrible, since we last spoke and you bashed Ethereum, it's up $400M on the market-cap and its price ~25%. When more businesses build for Ethereum, it is going to add further growth. All of my clients are integrating Ethereum into their businesses.

I found it ironic that you bashed Ethereum considering you are a LTC supporter.

Other than that, you are a Core guy, you don't speak from a business stand-point and millions of your dollars are not in jeopardy. Your nodes weren't attacked and you don't know who we are dealing with. You are not losing money right now with Bitcoin, I am, my clients are.

You guys can lobby all you want, try to convince professionals that Bitcoin isn't headed for disaster, in the end - it won't work. People aren't going to use your system, keep dreaming while the foundation crumbles around you. Everybody is walking away.

[iFixBTCmemoryIssues]

Dear Customers,

Would you like these new solutions? No.

Would you like to pay fees ranging from $.04 to $40? No.

Are you upset by your delayed transactions? Yes.

Are you upset that some of your transactions never even confirm? Yes.

Are your concerned that Bitcoin Core used a hostile-takeover to do all of this? Yes.

Are you going to be using their solutions in the future? No.

We have no financial incentive, we either a) are the business or b) are the customer or c) both.

Your customer-base is telling you that you are headed for failure and that we're resorting to other solutions, this is a bad sign.

Chinese miners are saying, "this has gotten out of control, we are abandoning you in July" - yet you continue to push on with this disastrous plan.

This now comes down to ego, you don't want to admit that you have lost and you will continue to lose. The power will slip through your hands.

I congratulate the majority of Chinese miners who stood up and said, "this is a terrible decision, enough is enough".

[arnoudk]

= more miners =

I actually think that more miners will be a natural step in the evolution of mining hardware.

Right now, the hardware that is being made has only one function: to find blocks. Chips that are state of the art today, are obsolete one year from now. The extremely impressive arms race has caused inequalities between miners - the one with the most efficient chip design and cheapest power and cooling will win. Too simplistic but there is some truth: If you cannot manufacture your own ASIC, you cannot compete.

Right now, decades of technology improvements are being rolled out in mere years. At one point, and we are close, we are going to be at the end of that extreme improvement.

When that happens, I would expect it to be more profitable for manufacturers to sell their chips openly and cheaply, rather than mining with them themselves. The great thing about these chips is their relative simplicity - they don't require complex architecture and lots of RAM. Not being ASIC resistant is actually a HUGE benefit, and not at all a bug.

These chips can be mass produced cheaply by the billions. The should find their way into devices whose primary function it is to provide a source of heat, and whose secondary function is to perform bitcoin hashing. Then, hashing would be much more decentralized.

Space and water heaters could become the bitcoin miners of the future. They are going to be in hundreds of millions of houses and businesses. Not because they want to run a bitcoin mine - but because the TCO of a bitcoin heater is lower than a resistance heater over the lifetime of the product.

I think THAT will be the driver for miner decentralization, not an increase in price. That would just grow the existing farms.

Do you agree with this opinion?

[rogerver]

[quote="arnoudk"]
Space and water heaters could become the bitcoin miners of the future. They are going to be in hundreds of millions of houses and businesses. Not because they want to run a bitcoin mine - but because the TCO of a bitcoin heater is lower than a resistance heater over the lifetime of the product./quote]
I think this is one of the more interesting developments in the ecosystem.
Several different people have already mentioned starting a company to repurpose the waste heat from Bitcoin mining.
Hopefully we will start seeing some of these products coming to market soon.