I thought the public might find both sides interesting.
Here it is in its entirety:
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:13 AM]:
Hey Roger
Alis here from Bitholla
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:13 AM]:
Hi ALI
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:13 AM]:
How is it going?
I recently saw some of your comments and tweets that made me a bit confused.
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:15 AM]:
I'm happy to try to clarify them.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:15 AM]:
Last i remember you said your not rooting for anyone in the community
Then why were you pushing bitcoin classic
Do you specifically see something wrong with core devs at the moment?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:17 AM]:
They are strangling bitcoin and forcing every single business in the ecosystem to switch to something else. I'm furious with the current core dev's refusal to allow bitcoin to scale.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:18 AM]:
Something else? Can you elaborate on that?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:19 AM]:
Ethereum, light coin, dash, or 1000 other choices.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:19 AM]:
Ah i see
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:19 AM]:
Well thats happening now
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:19 AM]:
It's happening now because Bitcoin hasn't been allowed to scale to keep up with the demand.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:20 AM]:
But your aware that there are alot of technicalities and issues with that, right?
Scaling requires a lot of engineering
And time
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:20 AM]:
I spent 6.5 years of my life, and a huge sum of money promoting the original promise in the white paper, and now they are blocking that from happening.
No one thinks 2mb blocks are dangerous. They are simply blocking it due to ego
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:20 AM]:
Because that original white paper fails to explain how this should scale
Umm
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:21 AM]:
Go read satoshi's own words. He was very clear
Satoshi wanted blocks to become bigger.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:21 AM]:
Yes
So do core devs
No?
I think at the end of the day everyone wants this to scale
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
The core devs are driving everyone to use something other than Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
Larger blocks is an easy fix for sure
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
I can name the companies that are leaving Bitcoin because of this:
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
Blockchain.info
Coinbase
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
So you think they are intentionally pushing everyone out of bitcoin?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:22 AM]:
Xapo
Bitpay
And on and on
No, they aren't doing it on purpose
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:23 AM]:
I can understand why businesses are furious
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:23 AM]:
They don't understand economics
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:23 AM]:
I think they are just more practical and realistic
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:23 AM]:
People have lots of choices other than Bitcoin. If Bitcoin isn't competitive, people will use something else. That's happening now
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:23 AM]:
They are not rising peoples expectations
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:24 AM]:
They are cheating me and all the other early adopters
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:24 AM]:
Like what ethereum is doing
Over promising...
I see
I see your point here
So the bottomline is that you think core devs dont know economics well their current actions would lead to bitcoins failure unintentionally
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:25 AM]:
We were promised one vision and scaling method. We invested years of our lives and millions of dollars, and now the current core team is not following the promised route.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:25 AM]:
Is thay correct?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:25 AM]:
Yes
They think Bitcoin is the only option. It isn't
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 AM]:
But that original idea was proposed 7 years ago
Tech has evolved
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 AM]:
Tech is even better now
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 AM]:
Yea
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 AM]:
So on chain scaling is even more realistic
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:26 AM]:
Ah
So its not about scaling
Its about on chain scaling?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:27 AM]:
It's completely about scaling
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:27 AM]:
Why does that matter to you?
On chainscaling
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:28 AM]:
On chain and off chain scaling are both being denied
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:28 AM]:
But then don't we have the same scalability problem few months from now after increasing it to 2mb
I can see a good load of works been done towards lightning network
So what do you think is the solution btw?
Based om what you said this path is going to lead bitcoin to fail
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:34 AM]:
Sorry, busy now
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:34 AM]:
(i dont agree with that though)
Sure no worries
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:36 AM]:
Having scalability issues a few months from now is better than having them now. Every major player in the ecosystem is busy integrating ethereum because of the scaling issues we have now. We need to kick the can down the road as many times as we can until the long terms solutions are ready.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:37 AM]:
Seems like your really worried about ethereum taking over
They have done an awesome marketing in ethereum
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:38 AM]:
I'm furious if it takes over because Bitcoin was artificially prevented from being allowed to scale.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:38 AM]:
But at the end of the day its the technology that matters really.. I dont see anything in ethereum as comoyter scientist and a cryptography researcher
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:38 AM]:
I've already bought a bunch of ether because of it.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:38 AM]:
Ethereum has worse scaling issues btw
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:39 AM]:
Ethereum already has 10x the transactional throughout capacity of Bitcoin
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:39 AM]:
I think actually this is a good thing. No dramas for bitcoin gives some free time for smart people to continue their work
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:40 AM]:
And cheats every single early adopter like myself.
I'm being cheated out of what I signed up for.
And Bitcoin will never become widespread if it doesn't scale fast enough to keep up with the usage demand.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
I agree that scaling is a gradual process
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
If Bitcoin is allowed to scale several years from now, it will already be too late.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
You cant suddenly make something scalable all of a suddrn
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
It needs to be allowed to scale now
Do you think 2mb blocks are a problem today?
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
Not really
2mb is totally find
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
Then why don't we have 2mb blocks today?
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:42 AM]:
Problem is that its a hard fork
Then we need to hard fork it few months later
Again
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:43 AM]:
A hard fork is a much smaller problem than not being able to scale.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:44 AM]:
Well thats a good argument
I dont really know the consequenses of bitcoin not scaling right away
I guess no one knows
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:45 AM]:
My background is in this sort of thing, and I can tell you for sure. If Bitcoin isn't allowed to scale now, it will never need to scale because people won't be using it.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:45 AM]:
I think thats something that core devs dont see
Cuz they are not really into the business part of it
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:45 AM]:
They don't see that at all
That is the problem.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:45 AM]:
But they know how big of a deal a hard fork is
And i think they are generally not afraid of other competitors
Cuz they are not providing much in terms of technology
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:46 AM]:
You are right in your assessment of them
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:46 AM]:
So one question:
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:46 AM]:
They don't see the problem as a problem at all
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:47 AM]:
Do you think people will adopt ethereum even if its a broken system?
Without solutions to many problems
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:47 AM]:
If it is broken, they will switch to something else after, but it won't be back to Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:47 AM]:
I believe that at the end of the day people will use the better technology
Maybe im wrong
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:48 AM]:
Beta max vs VHS proves that isn't always true
(That might be before your time)
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:48 AM]:
Haha
I remember vhs
If thats the case then core devs might be making a mistake
They are very perfectionist
They are not really into entrepreneurship space really
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:50 AM]:
And every single business man thinks they are making a huge huge mistake on this front
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:50 AM]:
But to me thats the whole idea of bitcoin
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:50 AM]:
All the entrepreneurs understand that Bitcoin needs to scale now, even if there are large risks
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:50 AM]:
The ideology
Even if it compromises the businesses
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:50 AM]:
The ideology will exist forever
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:51 AM]:
Idealogy has to be kept
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:51 AM]:
They crypto anarchists can and easily will switch to whatever coin they want.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:51 AM]:
Else it gets destroyed quickly
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:51 AM]:
We need to deliver to the masses a coin that is better than what a government approved competitor would look like.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:51 AM]:
Umm
Better in what terms?
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:52 AM]:
High fees and slow confirmation time will push people to use snap chat pay, and things other than Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:52 AM]:
Decentralization? Or being fast without fees and stuff
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:52 AM]:
As you know, domestic bank transfers in Korea are already faster and cheaper than Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:53 AM]:
Fast payment without fees dont requite decentralization
Yea
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:53 AM]:
So many core devs think that the percentage of full nodes is what counts for decentralization. It isn't. The absolute total number of full nodes is what counts.
A few hundred full nodes around the world would still be plenty to ward off government attacks of control.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:54 AM]:
Ah that definition of decentralization is another issue
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:54 AM]:
More nodes is better, but not at the cost of scalability
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:54 AM]:
Sure
I think after a certain thershold you dont get decentralization much from more nodes
Like if there is one node
If you add one more its a big deal
But if you already have 100 then you add 900 more
The decentralization you gain is far less that that one node to two node
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 10:58 AM]:
Agreed
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:00 AM]:
So i dont like people throwing "decentralization" to justify something without defining it
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:00 AM]:
Agreed again
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:01 AM]:
but yea the bottomline i think is that i think better tech wins eventually
But you think there are other stuff that are required for something to go to mainstream
And succeed
I dont necesseraily disagree with that
But i think tech is a lot more important
It also goes back to the definition of success
I thinl bitcoin is already successful
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:07 AM]:
I think the better tech will eventually win, but if Bitcoin isn't allowed to scale, the better tech will eventually be integrated into something other than Bitcoin
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:08 AM]:
if bitcoins not allowed to scale then its not the better tech
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:09 AM]:
Or they just crippled it for no good political reason
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:09 AM]:
haha come on
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:09 AM]:
That's exactly what is happening right now
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:10 AM]:
i dont think so
thats a conspiracy theory
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:10 AM]:
Then we disagree on that point.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:10 AM]:
I like conspiracy theories though
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:11 AM]:
It's not a conspiracy. The core team just doesn't understand the urgency.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:11 AM]:
these core devs are really idealistic
do you think they have an ego?
they seem pretty humble to me
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:11 AM]:
They don't understand that there are millions of options other than Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:12 AM]:
ok I see your point
and as an early adopter it definitely hurts to see people moving away from bitcoin
but trust me. the real tech is happening right in bitcoin
and the only reason i have faith in bitcoin is actually those core devs with their smart brilliant minds
unlike vitalik whos represented as the genius guy, these core devs dont get much credit for their smartness in bitcoin community either
if they had a polical game to play they could build at laest a better image of themselves
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:15 AM]:
But the core devs don't understand economics at all. People have so many choices other than Bitcoin.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:16 AM]:
yea I understand that
I dont know how much they know about economics
and I think you are right
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:16 AM]:
I can tell you, most of them know almost none
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:16 AM]:
they know not much about business either
ok i trust you
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:17 AM]:
I've spent hours talking with them. Your assessments that they don't feel the urgency are correct. My battery is almost done.
Ali, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:17 AM]:
cool
was nice talking to you roger
keep in touch
let me know if you are in Seoul
Roger Ver, [Jun 1, 2016, 11:19 AM]:
You too!
