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arnoudk
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Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:24 pm

Like Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong, bitcoin Core/Classic/XT and Unlimited developer Gavin Andresen has also released his thoughts on the Satoshi Roundtable!

http://gavinandresen.ninja/satoshi-roundtable-thoughts
MARCH 6, 2016
Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

I participated in the “Satoshi Roundtable” event in Florida last weekend on my way home from the Financial Cryptography conference.

The Roundtable is an invitation-only event organized by Bruce Fenton (current Executive Director of the Bitcoin Foundation, but it is not a Foundation event), and I’m told that in past years it was mostly a relaxed networking/socializing event.

This year, discussion of the the block size limit dominated the entire weekend.

All of that discussion happened under the “Chatham House Rule” – “…participants are free to use the information received, but neither the identity nor the affiliation of the speaker(s), nor that of any other participant, may be revealed” – so for the rest of this blog post I will talk about what happened and what was said, but won’t mention any names or affiliations. You can see who attended at the event’s website.

There were a couple of key moments that I remember. At one point, everybody was asked if they supported the “Hong Kong compromise” from the week before (segregated witness in April, then code for a 2MB hard fork in July of 2016 with a minimum of a year before 2MB blocks are allowed).

“Everybody who support that, raise your hand” : a dozen or so people, most of whom were part of that Hong Kong meeting, raise their hands.

“Everybody who does not support that, raise your hand” : everybody else (forty? fifty people?) raises their hands.

There was a lot of talk about moving the July of 2017 date closer. In particular, a plan was presented that had a three month grace period after 95% of hashpower voted yes and 75% of coin-age-weighted-transaction-volume-in-some-time-period also indicated support.

A subset of people spent several hours talking about the details, but reached no consensus. 95% miner voting is a problem for some miners, who don’t want to have veto power over such an important change. The chances of extortion either against them (“vote the way I want or I will DDoS you off the Internet”) or by them (“If you want me to vote a certain way, pay up”) are just too great.

And while the 75% coin-age voting is an interesting idea, actually agreeing on the details (Is there a fixed time period when the vote happens? A sliding window with a deadline? Should it be 75% of total transaction volume or just 75% of the volume that bothers to express a preference? Should it be 25% can veto instead of 75% needed to approve? Is this meant to be a vote or just a signal that people have upgraded?) and then writing and reviewing the code would take months.

Over the last year of trying, and failing, to reach a reasonable compromise, it has become clear to me that some developers don’t want any on-chain scaling solution any time soon. They believe more theoretically elegant (but technically complicated) off-chain solutions like the Lightning Network are a better long-term scaling solution, and they believe that by resisting a simple limit increase we will get to that long-term solution faster.

They are wrong.

If the block size limit is not increased, we will see more off-chain solutions. But they won’t be the Lightning Network– instead, we will see highly centralized “clearing” agreements between exchanges and miners and merchants or merging of miners and transactions creators.

We can see this start to happen– BTCC is a large exchange and mining pool, and announced “BlockPriority” last year for its customers. I don’t blame BTCC at all for doing that, it makes perfect business sense.

It is, however, a symptom of an unhealthy network that is becoming increasingly unreliable and vulnerable to attacks.
Thanks Gavin, for these thoughts.

Most importantly: let's scale.
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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:40 pm

Umm. I'd like to know why Luke Dashjr is still allowed to participate in anything. He needs to be publicly shunned by the entire community. I was a Core supporter until a few weeks ago and I am a tolerant person, but I can no longer support a team that allows someone with such views. Why this is not a bigger discussion as to the credibility of Core I do not know:

https://np.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncenso ... _right_to/

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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:57 pm

Core is under investigation, a report will be published on May 1st, 2016.

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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:50 am

Over the last year of trying, and failing, to reach a reasonable compromise, it has become clear to me that some developers don’t want any on-chain scaling solution any time soon. They believe more theoretically elegant (but technically complicated) off-chain solutions like the Lightning Network are a better long-term scaling solution, and they believe that by resisting a simple limit increase we will get to that long-term solution faster.

They are wrong. If the block size limit is not increased, we will see more off-chain solutions. But they won’t be the Lightning Network– instead, we will see highly centralized “clearing” agreements between exchanges and miners and merchants or merging of miners and transactions creators.

We can see this start to happen– BTCC is a large exchange and mining pool, and announced “BlockPriority” last year for its customers. I don’t blame BTCC at all for doing that, it makes perfect business sense. It is, however, a symptom of an unhealthy network that is becoming increasingly unreliable and vulnerable to attacks.
You'd think these 'anti on-chain scaling solutions' developer types would realize this is as essential as upgrading the RAM or Graphics Card (GPU) in your computer to deal with a more demanding video game.

This is how I see it in simple terms as a non-technical investor of Bitcoin.

Once again ego and 'me, me, me' mentality rules the day. People never learn. With developers like these, who needs Central Banksters?
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arnoudk
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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:56 am

Umm. I'd like to know why Luke Dashjr is still allowed to participate in anything. He needs to be publicly shunned by the entire community. I was a Core supporter until a few weeks ago and I am a tolerant person, but I can no longer support a team that allows someone with such views. Why this is not a bigger discussion as to the credibility of Core I do not know:

https://np.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncenso ... _right_to/
Those are some seriously delusional statements!

However, I am never worried about delusional people. I am not comparing the following people to Luke DashJr, but more to make a point: Hitler was delusional, but I am not worried about Hitler. I am not worried about people like Hitler. They, themselves, cannot possibly do harm. If it is just their misguided ideas in a sane world - they will simply be ignored. But, I am worried about each person that listens to delusional people and who act out of their own free will - but act in a manner that is dictated by this delusional person. Hitler had no power. The people who listened to him en masse, THEY had the real power. And they CHOSE to use that power to fuel the dictators delusions.

No one in Core has any power, except what we - the bitcoin community - give them.

Let me repeat that.

No one in Core has any power, except what we - the bitcoin community - give them.

Luke DashJr has no power, except what others in the bitcoin community gives him.

The problem is not that there is some misguided Core Dev. The problem is that people listen to him without rational thought.

The solution, simply, is to move on without them. The solution is to scale. The solution is Bitcoin Classic, or Bitcoin Unlimited, or Bitcoin XT.

Be part of the solution, and use your feet to vote.
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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:03 am

You'd think these 'anti on-chain scaling solutions' developer types would realize this is as essential as upgrading the RAM or Graphics Card (GPU) in your computer to deal with a more demanding video game.

This is how I see it in simple terms as a non-technical investor of Bitcoin.

Once again ego and 'me, me, me' mentality rules the day. People never learn. With developers like these, who needs Central Banksters?
You are 100% correct. And you do not need to be technical to understand the importance to scale.
  • No, we cannot build larger ships to transport goods. These larger ships cannot enter the small canals. We must never allow these large ships to exist. I'd rather have far fewer and more expensive imports, than all these standardized shipping containers that bring us goodies from the other side of the world at virtually no cost! A FEE market in shipping is what we need, and we must dicate what this fee market looks like, it will propel the world into the next century!
  • No, we cannot have large farms, producing plentiful food for everyone. Large farms means that trucks full of food will have to drive over these small roads to feed the hungry and starving population. The roads cannot cope with that much food! Much better to let the population starve! A FEE market in food is what we need, and we must dicate what this fee market looks like!
These statements are as misguided as the anti-scaling arguments, in my opinion.
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Re: Gavin Andresen: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:12 am

You'd think these 'anti on-chain scaling solutions' developer types would realize this is as essential as upgrading the RAM or Graphics Card (GPU) in your computer to deal with a more demanding video game.

This is how I see it in simple terms as a non-technical investor of Bitcoin.

Once again ego and 'me, me, me' mentality rules the day. People never learn. With developers like these, who needs Central Banksters?
You are 100% correct. And you do not need to be technical to understand the importance to scale.
  • No, we cannot build larger ships to transport goods. These larger ships cannot enter the small canals. We must never allow these large ships to exist. I'd rather have far fewer and more expensive imports, than all these standardized shipping containers that bring us goodies from the other side of the world at virtually no cost! A FEE market in shipping is what we need, and we must dicate what this fee market looks like, it will propel the world into the next century!
  • No, we cannot have large farms, producing plentiful food for everyone. Large farms means that trucks full of food will have to drive over these small roads to feed the hungry and starving population. The roads cannot cope with that much food! Much better to let the population starve! A FEE market in food is what we need, and we must dicate what this fee market looks like!
These statements are as misguided as the anti-scaling arguments, in my opinion.
They should look no further than how the internet became what it is today because of its ease of use, after making it less like a crash gearbox and more like an autogearbox.
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