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Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:46 pm

I was just lurking around bitcoin IRC channel and i just saw in the info that they said "WARNING: bitcoin.com is scammy" . So, just wanted to know that who all are the mods of that IRC channel?
And what are the reasons for which they have said that bitcoin.com is scammy?
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:10 pm

I would also like to hear their objections.
They are more than welcome to come post them here.

Also, I found this thread via our cool Twitter bot.

https://twitter.com/btcforum/status/660824900739932160
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:54 am

I am personally not on IRC and don't know any of the operators there, but I can somewhat agree with that statement.

The biggest problem I have on a "scammy" level are the pages:

http://buy.bitcoin.com
http://wallet.bitcoin.com
(and debit card page)

Personally I would never refer any new bitcoin user to those pages simply because they are really really terrible.



The "Featured" functionality is IMO a bit "scammy". It does not make any sense to me, to only list the one option that pays you (Roger) the most money. I can understand if you want to make some money with the site, since you also invest (presumably a lot) in it. But I do not think that this is the best way.



For example the $239 KeepKey will be shown 100% of the time at "hardware wallets". Making it look like this is the only one available. I own a $99 Trezor and it's absolutely great. The team of Ledger are great too and have an even cheaper alternative. I cannot see how it will be good for a new bitcoin user to only see 1 option?! Since it's actually the most expensive option, they might even reject the idea of hardware wallets - even though hardware wallets are absolutely great and IMO the future of almost all bitcoin wallets. For all other wallet types (and the buy page) this is the same and therefor I would never ever currently refer someone to those pages.

The page of bitcoin.org: https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet is not perfect either. But at least it shows almost all the options and gives decent arguments for each of them so the user can decide for themselves which one is best for him. Again, I don't think the .org is perfect either, but it is definitely way better than the .com one.



My suggestion: make the BEST "buy" and "wallet" overview pages from all the bitcoin websites. Show all the credible options and list good arguments for each of them. For "Buy" you can even look at local options. For example here in the Philippines you don't want to show international options but like coins.ph, buybitcoin.ph etc. For EU you want to list those with SEPA transfers like Kraken. Etc.

Then show one "Sponsored" option on top if you want to earn some money with it (I am sure everyone is fine with that - especially if you name it "Sponsored".) The thing is: this way people like me, will actually refer others/new users to those pages, which increases the visitors those pages too. Ironically I think that such setup will therefor profit you even more money than the current setup (if that is relevant.) Plus it will have a much better overview and will even benefit the bitcoin community on a greater level.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:02 pm

Thank you for the very useful feedback on how to make the site more useful.
Some of your suggestions will likely be implemented.

I saw a lot of text, but no scam accusation.
Where is the scam accusation?

Don't you think it is "scummy" to call something "scammy" when there is no scam?
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:45 pm

I agree it's not actually "scammy" (not sure what the definition of that even is?) But "one option" that is based on how much money is paid, is at least "not trustworthy" and at worst "sketchy". So I personally assume that those IRC ops mean "not trustworthy" with "scammy". I agree that there is not an actual scam going on. I even appreciate the transparency of those bitcoin addresses, just disagree with the concept.

Overall I am not trying to defend the title in that IRC channel either, I also disagree with putting that there. I simply shared what I personally dislike of this site and it's something that I think could be the reason of that IRC channel title.

Obviously if the person who put that title there wants to share their opinion, I would be interested in that too.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:12 pm

I think they talk nonsense.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:38 am

I saw a lot of text, but no scam accusation.
Where is the scam accusation?

Don't you think it is "scummy" to call something "scammy" when there is no scam?

While I agree that "scammy" is going too far, as I noted on r/btc here I think there are some issues with bitcoin.com as it currently stands.

The promoted exchanges thing (and promoted wallets) and the fact that there is no real information on how to spend bitcoin, is really disturbing. While I don't see any "scam" certainly the fact that some exchange (and there have been well documented scammy exchanges) can pay to get itself promoted is disturbing. So maybe you have checks in place to prevent that, maybe not. Regardless a pay your way to the top for a site that is trying to be informational is unsettling to say the least.

Spend Bitcoin: There is no information on how to spend bitcoin here (following the main "spend bitcoin" link at the top) except with Bitcoin Debit cards of which three are shown. How about all the places on coinmap.org, menufy.com, overstock.com or just simply giving people information about how to use bitcoin on the web or other places (sending bitcoin to friends, family, anyone) using any bitcoin wallet.

Overall the site has a pretty commercial look/feel to it, and the promoted wallets and exchanges and heavy placement of bitcoin debit cards enforces this.

I would love to work with you @rogerver (at no cost) on improving the site if you want to make it the go to place for all things bitcoin.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:14 am

The site has improved over time. Various folks are contributing to design, and other parts to improve the overall quality. The site has not been under development a significant amount of time, and I wouldn't classify the current status as "scammy", with suggestions for improvement and more time it will evolve.

I think this message on IRC was added earlier on, and if the site was given a second look upon all of the changes it would probably be fine with whomever took offense.
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:54 am

The site has improved over time. Various folks are contributing to design, and other parts to improve the overall quality...
Can you comment on some of the issues I raised above?

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:35 am

Can you comment on some of the issues I raised above?
I'm not personally working on these parts of the site so I haven't been involved in the setup or discussions.

I think the spend Bitcoin changes proposed sound like a great addition. The exchange question is probably better answered by Roger, or one of the other web team members.

Feedback is always helpful, thank you.
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:55 am

Some are trying to prevent the people's from using Bitcoin.com It was expected,the wallets and the exchanges were linked on Bitcoin.com is safe,the problem is Bitcoin.com is uncensored and this bothers some peoples that is against to have something that is not censorship
Last edited by Chris on Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Replace con with com
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:54 pm

I'm not personally working on these parts of the site so I haven't been involved in the setup or discussions.
Can we get some people who are involved, on this thread? There can't be too many right, small community. Or if there is a better place to propose changes let me know. But "suggestions" often fall on deaf ears unless there is active commentary around it.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:40 pm

The only #bitcoin person i know for sure is gmaxwell.
The rest are just nicks - no idea who they are but propably also Theymos etc.
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:54 pm

The only #bitcoin person i know for sure is gmaxwell...
We are talking about bitcoin.com the website here. Owned by Roger Ver and same people running this forum I would assume.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:06 pm

The only #bitcoin person i know for sure is gmaxwell...
We are talking about bitcoin.com the website here. Owned by Roger Ver and same people running this forum I would assume.

Yes and on #bitcoin IRC that shows this messed up message - one of mods if gmaxwell, the core dev
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:40 pm

Yes and on #bitcoin IRC that shows this messed up message - one of mods if gmaxwell, the core dev
Right to get the "scammy" message removed you have to get in touch with whoever controls that freenode irc channel. Probably theymos.

But more to the point, and what I've been trying to point out is that bitcoin.com needs to be less "scammy". No I don't think that word is appropriate but see my comments on what needs to change now.

Bitcoin.com website needs serious improvements if it meant to be a mostly non-commercial informative site. If it's purpose is just to generate fees and not be truly informative then ok, well no need to change. Otherwise please see my comments (and others) in this thread on what needs to change.

Seriously, the site has some issues that need to be fixed. So instead of worrying that some irc channel calls it "scammy" let's actually fix the real issues.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:08 pm

Yes and on #bitcoin IRC that shows this messed up message - one of mods if gmaxwell, the core dev
Right to get the "scammy" message removed you have to get in touch with whoever controls that freenode irc channel. Probably theymos.

...
good luck with that one. dictators wont change their opinion. :?
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri May 13, 2016 4:55 am

Now do you really wonder why people call it scammy? =====> https://casino.bitcoin.com/


Look gambling has its place I guess, it can be fun. But online gambling has had its share of problems (people running bots or actively adjusting outcomes from the inside, etc.). Having bitcoin.com be a place that entices people to gambling is not the future that many of us were hoping for. When you are ready to listen, get in touch and I will help.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Fri May 13, 2016 5:20 am

Are you accusing the Bitcoin.com casino of being a scam?
If so, please present your evidence.
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sun May 15, 2016 9:31 pm

Are you accusing the Bitcoin.com casino of being a scam?
If so, please present your evidence.
No not at all, please read my post again and my previous posts on this thread. I have no evidence of any scam with the Bitcoin.com casino.

However, Online gambling has a few issues, like, as a player...

1) You have no idea if you are playing against other real people or against bots/AI. After all we know have computers that can beat people at Go and Chess. Bots in online gambling I think are fairly common and I'm pretty sure many of these have an advantage over humans.
2) You have no idea if the House is not running their own bots or passing information to certain players, or adjusting the odds in other ways.
3) Large sums are often left stored with the Casino, which can lead to Gox like situations (this is true at all Exchanges today as well of course).

Hopefully at least you've solved point 3 and people can send their balance to their wallet at any time (or maybe this happens in realtime?).

But points 1 & 2 will always be problematic. Now I guess you can argue, that anyone can run a bot/AI, etc so it is a level playing field, and all is fair. And you could argue that these bots may be flawed and a smart player could exploit those flaws. Both points have some merit but still many a player will try online gambling without realizing what they are up against. As for point 2 well there is no way to know for sure, unless you've developed some decentralized mechanisms for the server/client and card shuffling/dealing etc that somehow eliminate this possibility.

The point is Online gambling is "scammy" in the sense that it is likely to be connected to scams or at least in the past was linked to numerous scams. It does not mean there is actually a scam taking place at the moment.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon May 16, 2016 4:00 pm

Two quote your own words with some very minor changes:

"The point is humans are "scammy" in the sense that they are likely to be connected to scams or at least in the past were linked to numerous scams. It does not mean there is actually a scam taking place at the moment."

I think that should show clearly just how baseless the connection you are insinuating is.

Either way, I think humans should be more concerned about competing with AI in life in general rather than some online casino.
There is a tough road ahead for humans.
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon May 16, 2016 7:20 pm

Are you accusing the Bitcoin.com casino of being a scam?
If so, please present your evidence.
No not at all, please read my post again and my previous posts on this thread. I have no evidence of any scam with the Bitcoin.com casino.

However, Online gambling has a few issues, like, as a player...

1) You have no idea if you are playing against other real people or against bots/AI. After all we know have computers that can beat people at Go and Chess. Bots in online gambling I think are fairly common and I'm pretty sure many of these have an advantage over humans.
2) You have no idea if the House is not running their own bots or passing information to certain players, or adjusting the odds in other ways.
3) Large sums are often left stored with the Casino, which can lead to Gox like situations (this is true at all Exchanges today as well of course).

Hopefully at least you've solved point 3 and people can send their balance to their wallet at any time (or maybe this happens in realtime?).

But points 1 & 2 will always be problematic. Now I guess you can argue, that anyone can run a bot/AI, etc so it is a level playing field, and all is fair. And you could argue that these bots may be flawed and a smart player could exploit those flaws. Both points have some merit but still many a player will try online gambling without realizing what they are up against. As for point 2 well there is no way to know for sure, unless you've developed some decentralized mechanisms for the server/client and card shuffling/dealing etc that somehow eliminate this possibility.

The point is Online gambling is "scammy" in the sense that it is likely to be connected to scams or at least in the past was linked to numerous scams. It does not mean there is actually a scam taking place at the moment.
You have presented no evidence of any type of scam.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sat May 21, 2016 1:26 pm

You have presented no evidence of any type of scam.

Stop trying to control Roger by what he can and can't do.

What the heck????, I just said that I have no evidence of any actual scam in my last post. Nor am I trying to control Roger in any way. Rather I am trying to help him. HELP HIM.

There was some concern, (see the bleeping title of this forum thread), of whether bitcoin.com is "scammy", I've been trying to explain what I think the problems are and how it can improve its reputation.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Sat May 21, 2016 2:00 pm

Two quote your own words with some very minor changes:

"The point is humans are "scammy" in the sense that they are likely to be connected to scams or at least in the past were linked to numerous scams. It does not mean there is actually a scam taking place at the moment."

I think that should show clearly just how baseless the connection you are insinuating is.

Either way, I think humans should be more concerned about competing with AI in life in general rather than some online casino.
There is a tough road ahead for humans.
So you mostly seized on the last sentence of my previous post, and sort of glossed over the other 3 points that formed the basis for it. Maybe you could at least explain how the casino is tackling points 1, 2, 3. Tell us all the protections you have in place and how people's balance is automatically transferred back to their own wallet at the end of each session or something like that. Tell us about the security measures in place to prevent insiders from gaming the system. Tell us about your bot detection algorithms.

Gambling with real money is real life (as are most things humans spend time on, virtual or otherwise), so your "life in general" argument actually works against you here. People spend a lot of time online, and that is where bots/AI will be used extensively.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Mon May 23, 2016 8:37 pm

Two quote your own words with some very minor changes:

"The point is humans are "scammy" in the sense that they are likely to be connected to scams or at least in the past were linked to numerous scams. It does not mean there is actually a scam taking place at the moment."

I think that should show clearly just how baseless the connection you are insinuating is.

Either way, I think humans should be more concerned about competing with AI in life in general rather than some online casino.
There is a tough road ahead for humans.
So you mostly seized on the last sentence of my previous post, and sort of glossed over the other 3 points that formed the basis for it. Maybe you could at least explain how the casino is tackling points 1, 2, 3. Tell us all the protections you have in place and how people's balance is automatically transferred back to their own wallet at the end of each session or something like that. Tell us about the security measures in place to prevent insiders from gaming the system. Tell us about your bot detection algorithms.

Gambling with real money is real life (as are most things humans spend time on, virtual or otherwise), so your "life in general" argument actually works against you here. People spend a lot of time online, and that is where bots/AI will be used extensively.
You don't seem to have read the FAQ, or even taken a cursory glance at the current casino.
If you had, you would know the answers to your questions:

1. You are only playing against the house. There are currently no games that allow players to play against each other.
2. Irrelevant in light of answer #1.
3. Withdraw your money when you are done playing. (Simple)
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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Tue May 24, 2016 3:20 am

You don't seem to have read the FAQ, or even taken a cursory glance at the current casino.
If you had, you would know the answers to your questions:

1. You are only playing against the house. There are currently no games that allow players to play against each other.
2. Irrelevant in light of answer #1.
3. Withdraw your money when you are done playing. (Simple)
Dude, I'm in the freaking US, I get 404 errors on every casino link.

How is "2" (You have no idea if the House is not running their own bots or passing information to certain players, or adjusting the odds in other ways.) irrelevant if you are just playing against the House? Yes, bots and passing information to other players may be less relevant, but certainly "adjusting odds in other ways" is pretty damn relevant. What you have roulette there or something and everyone just goes on blind faith that you aren't tilting the odds? Other players may be even less risky than going against the house only 100% of the time.

As for 3, it would be great if you prompted people at logoff or something if they want to transfer their balance. Ultimately this likely means less risk to you and your customers since less money overall is stored in Casino wallets for long periods of time. More hot wallet transfers could mean more risk in some ways as well, but I think on balance encouraging people not to leave the bitcoins with you for long periods is the way to go.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Tue May 24, 2016 5:37 am

You don't seem to have read the FAQ, or even taken a cursory glance at the current casino.
If you had, you would know the answers to your questions:

1. You are only playing against the house. There are currently no games that allow players to play against each other.
2. Irrelevant in light of answer #1.
3. Withdraw your money when you are done playing. (Simple)
Dude, I'm in the freaking US, I get 404 errors on every casino link.

How is "2" (You have no idea if the House is not running their own bots or passing information to certain players, or adjusting the odds in other ways.) irrelevant if you are just playing against the House? Yes, bots and passing information to other players may be less relevant, but certainly "adjusting odds in other ways" is pretty damn relevant. What you have roulette there or something and everyone just goes on blind faith that you aren't tilting the odds? Other players may be even less risky than going against the house only 100% of the time.

As for 3, it would be great if you prompted people at logoff or something if they want to transfer their balance. Ultimately this likely means less risk to you and your customers since less money overall is stored in Casino wallets for long periods of time. More hot wallet transfers could mean more risk in some ways as well, but I think on balance encouraging people not to leave the bitcoins with you for long periods is the way to go.
Not to take sides in this debate but realistically speaking all of the points you raised are irrelevant.

It is up to each and every individual to exercise personal responsibility over his or her own actions. If a person decides to play at any given casino then they are making a decision - of their own volition - to trust that the casino is not taking advantage of players in unscrupulous ways. If they think that may be the case with any casino, yet they choose to play there regardless, that is also their own personal choice which brings with it its own associated personal responsibility. If a person chooses not to exercise personal responsibility over their actions then they have no valid reason to complain should the result of those choices ever have negative effects.

As far as prompting people to transfer their balance at logoff - why? Yes, it may seem like a good idea but it is essentially treating people as though they cannot think for themselves; many will get annoyed at that prospect, and rightly so! Again, it is up to each individual to exercise personal responsibility over where they choose to leave their funds. Of course funds are always safer under one's own control, however if one chooses to grant control of those funds to a third party then that is one's own decision, and it carries with it risks that one has not taken it upon oneself to consider with any degree of appropriate concern.

Exercising personal responsibility over your actions encourages self-sufficiency and self-growth. It allows a person to control more of their own life than they previously realised possible, as it starts to make them truly understand the powerful, life-affecting principle of cause and effect.

The sooner people stop utilising the dependent mindset of "somebody else should do this for me" and start utilising the self-sufficient mindset of "I should do this myself", the better off every single person on the planet will be.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Tue May 24, 2016 2:43 pm

Not to take sides in this debate but realistically speaking all of the points you raised are irrelevant.
LOL, funny. Everything you said sucks, but I'm not taking sides :)

Anyway I had a long reply I tried to post but this site apparently has a timed session and can't seem to remember me (despite clicking the Remember me checkbox at login) so everything I tried to write is gone :( so I guess you win this round. Seeing you are a moderator of this site, maybe you could talk to someone about getting that fixed. Losing a post should never happen.

Basic points (highly summarized):
  • Companies have responsibilities too, not just people and it is the responsibility of bitcoin.com that is being discussed here.

    Transferring balances at logoff is just one way to reduce the trust needed between parties. I think there is also opportunity in the future to use payment channels and other mechanisms to give users access to the balance and also make bets without requiring large sums under control of someone else's private keys for long periods. Basically don't create a bitcoin bank. We have those already, called a bitcoin wallet.

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Re: Why is bitcoin.com "scammy" ?

Tue May 24, 2016 9:21 pm

Personally I think that this is ridiculous to tell that Bitcoin.com is cammy because it has a casino or a shop.

1. Look at what has bitcointalk.org turned to - thousands of scholars with no money in their pockets are writing thousands of posts just to earn some money in signature campaigns. What are all those ''campaigns'' about? Yes, they are about some shitty casinos nobody really knows. How they work? Are they fair? And what does this mean ''signature campaign''? Shouldnt they name it Scam Advertising Campaign? The whole forum is bloated with these scholar writing their posts and you simply cant find useful info among millions of stupid threads like ''0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 BTC reward for posting my tweets on your site for about a year''.

2. The Bitcoin shop is essential to any site dedicated to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is MONEY, they need shops to spend them there. What is so bad about selling some Bitcoin swag to people who are fond of decentralized software and crypto anarchism?

I think people who post things like ''Bitcoin.com is scammy'' are just jealous about how awesome does Bitcoin.com look and feel. Yes, it has a bit ''official'' look, like its been approved by Pope or something, but it is still a pretty clear and easy to use site. Go check other projects interfaces - they are ugly so much that you cant use them in 90% of cases. Ive seen thousands of BTC related projects and I use only 10% of them because in most cases I simply cant understand how to use them even if they offer valuable sign-up bonuses.

PS. I dont see any casino ''signature campaigns'' on this forum. Oh oh oh, it is so ''scammy''! Ill go ask my mommy to punish Roger Ver because I cant earn 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001 BTC weekly for stupid signatures here.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.


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