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My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:26 am

Hi Adam,
CC David Shares.
CC Bitcoin.com News Team
CC The internet

I’ve already spoken with David about this topic.
My understanding is that there was recently an attempt to have one single thread about a hot topic rather than 50 individual threads,
so some moderating was done to move the conversation to the single thread.

I’ve instructed David, and he was already in agreement before my instruction, to error on the side of allowing
too many posts, rather than deleting posts.

Either way, /r/BTC mod logs are completely open, so the whole world can see exactly what the /r/BTC moderators are up to.

I’d love to see a copy of an email from you to Theymos complaining about not only the censorship on /r/Bitcoin, but the intentional manipulation
of posts so they appear to have the exact opposite meaning of what the author intended:
Image

I suspect that email doesn’t exist, but would love to be proven wrong.
I do have an idea for you to help rectify the situation though.

I’ve already publicly offered to donate $500,000 USD to the charity of Reddit’s choice if they simply appoint moderators to /r/Bitcoin that actually allow people to discuss Bitcoin.
To show that you are also apposed to the censorship and intentional manipulation on /r/Bitcoin, I’m inviting you to match my own $500,000 USD, so together we can offer $1M USD to Reddit to help end the censorship.
What do you say?
If $500,000 is more than you are willing to allocate to this cause because you didn’t believe in Bitcoin despite Satoshi emailing you about it in the very beginning, and you waited until they were already about $1,000 each before buying your first one,
I think a smaller amount would still be a tremendous act of good faith. Even $20 would suffice.

What amount can we add from you to the current $500,000 reward?

Thank you for helping to support removing censorship of discussion about censorship resistant currencies,

Roger Ver
Chief Executive Officer
Bitcoin.com

On Aug 30, 2018, at 1:53 AM, Adam Back wrote:

Hi Roger

I know you talk frequently about being anti-censorship -
https://twitter.com/bhec39/status/1034902216996540416 it looks like
David Shares, who works for you and moderates r/btc is deleting a lot
of comments without any defensible rationale.

I'm not talking about the automod ones but the ones deleted manually
for example someone just being unflattering about BCH, or posting a
link about square and asking about BCH alternative (in a BTC biased
tone).

I think that's clearly censorship - something you'd be interested to
stand by your word and clean up? I can understand tempers may be
flared about forks, but recall that was the circumstance before too,
just a different coin. When there are contentious things to discuss
is precisely when uncensored forums are the most important.

Given that there is a lot of relevant conversation for people in BCH
to be having around now with the forks, you'd surely want one of the
main forums to discuss these topics to not be uncensored or biased by
your employee?

I'm not sure where you stand vs Jihan, Craig/nChain vs Cobra but
sincerely good luck with the meeting.

If I may offer some advice (from mistakes of others eg NYA and my own
misadventure attending HKA) that getting into closed door meetings and
feeling the need to agree something under pressure is likely a bad
idea - decisions should be made by the community, not by miners, nor
by a few vested interests in a room - and not under undue time
pressure to agree a compromise, any compromise. It's also pretty
centralised, and hard to defend on that basis.

Adam
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topic7039.html

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:59 pm

This is hilarious. Let me first address those two (which Adam calls "a lot") non-automoderated links from the screen shot Adam shared with Roger.

The first post by Performa16 was and I quote:
"BCASH HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH Hahhahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhaahhahahahahahahhahahahahahah"

Yes, I removed it as spam, as it clearly appears to be spammy to me. The post is a non-sensical gobbledigook of "hahaha" with "bcash" littered in the front. Bcash is also a proposed zcash forked altcoin. The user account Performa16 that submitted it has 3 total posts in 7 months, so clearly they came to drive-by spam the sub. The account was created recently and has a bunch of karma-farming posts when it was created.

The second post by xxjoker122 was and I quote:
"Sorry bcash, you just become completely obsolete. Ohh yea and it's the real bitcoin not bcash. Ship is almost under!!!"

Yes this was also removed as spam, for similar reasons. Although this is less 'spammy' than the first, again they are referencing the zcash forked altcoin in a Bitcoin related-only sub. The user has since deleted his post, but you can still see the post here with my rationale (that Adam claimed I didn't post any) is still in the post.

In the spirit of free and open uncensored discussion which has been going on for 3 years now, we let most things go and don't remove anything. We certainly never remove anything simply because the person wrote something that isn't in line with what a moderator might perceive Bitcoin to be, which is exactly what /r/bitcoin does. From time to time, we do moderate things like scams, malware, spam, and abuse. Adam Back is doing his best to twist the narrative here to try to shine light on /r/btc when in reality he should be condemning /r/bitcoin every chance he has.

Why do some people then call Bitcoin Cash "bcash" if it's a proposed fork of zcash? Well, the term bcash has also been propagandized from the /r/bitcoin subreddit as a way for /r/bitcoin to try to remove the word Bitcoin from Bitcoin Cash and disparage the actual Bitcoin Cash (BCH) coin. They are doing it in attempts to confuse users. You can read about how they started doing this in this post here. What is even more ironic with this whole thing is that Adam Back is the CEO of Blockstream. The now former (but then active) CTO of Blockstream Greg Maxwell was caught working with /r/bitcoin mods to hack and vote cheat on Reddit! Yes folks - this is the CTO of Blockstream doing these underhanded and illegal things to further push Blockstream propaganda. In that linked post, there is clear black and white evidence. Read it for yourself and do your own research. You will find out that also Blockstream CEO Adam Back has also hired a full time of astroturfers to go on social media and try to shift the narrative to further Blockstream's agenda. This in completely in line with their strategy which stems from their intelligence they have been running on the entire Bitcoin community.

So it is a bit ridiculous for Adam Back to make claims about censorship when he himself is doing everything he can to usurp Bitcoin and change it from an electronic cash system to a settlement layer where he aims to profit heavily. It's also insane for him to make these claims when he has yet to state that he condemns the mass-censorship in /r/bitcoin and his very own CTO was caught working with the mods there to further disrupt. Why is he pointing fingers at /r/btc when /r/bitcoin is 1000x worse? And one of the only reasons /r/btc has these types of trolls and spammers is because of the propaganda that he is promulgating himself.

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:27 pm

Deleting posts for "referring to bcash the fork of zcash" is unbelievably disingenuous.

There is a sincere belief by many Bitcoin supporters that Bitcoin Cash is attempting to hijack the Bitcoin brand and benefit from unsuspecting new users accidentally buying the wrong currency.

There are many people who sincerely believe bcash is a more appropriate name to prevent people from being confused and losing money.

You may absoloutely disagree with this, but when you start calling it a social attack and deleting posts that refer to bcash, you are absoloutely guilty of censorship.

To 'pretend' you believe someone is mistakenly referring to a zcash fork in order to delete otherwise reasoned discussion is utterly obvious and shameless.

Evidence this occurs (post removed):
https://snew.github.io/r/btc/comments/8 ... ther_fake/

And the moderator comment: "This sub has nothing to do with the zcash forked coin bcash. Maybe try another sub; see rule 6."

This is hypocrisy is completely obvious.

Any comment on whether you think this is acceptable Roger?

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:16 am

Any comment on whether you think this is acceptable Roger?
I don't think the second post should have been deleted.
By any objective standard, BTC is the coin stealing the Bitcoin name, and BCH is the real Bitcoin.
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topic7039.html

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:27 am

I don't think the second post should have been deleted.
By any objective standard, BTC is the coin stealing the Bitcoin name, and BCH is the real Bitcoin.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Can you have an explanation be provided as to why posts like it have been getting removed?

Also, how are cumulative proof of work and market value not objective?

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:29 am

Deleting posts for "referring to bcash the fork of zcash" is unbelievably disingenuous.

There is a sincere belief by many Bitcoin supporters that Bitcoin Cash is attempting to hijack the Bitcoin brand and benefit from unsuspecting new users accidentally buying the wrong currency.

There are many people who sincerely believe bcash is a more appropriate name to prevent people from being confused and losing money.

You may absoloutely disagree with this, but when you start calling it a social attack and deleting posts that refer to bcash, you are absoloutely guilty of censorship.

To 'pretend' you believe someone is mistakenly referring to a zcash fork in order to delete otherwise reasoned discussion is utterly obvious and shameless.

Evidence this occurs (post removed):
https://snew.github.io/r/btc/comments/8 ... ther_fake/

And the moderator comment: "This sub has nothing to do with the zcash forked coin bcash. Maybe try another sub; see rule 6."

This is hypocrisy is completely obvious.

Any comment on whether you think this is acceptable Roger?

It's not disengenious. I will tell you why.

From the start of the Bitcoin Cash (BCH) split from Bitcoin Core (BTC) in mid-2017, a new altcoin was proposed called bcash, which is a fork of zcash. At the same time, /r/bitcoin and others (such as Adam Back, Blockstream, etc) also started to call Bitcoin Cash "bcash" as a way to disparage it, since they have no other real technical problems with it and only resort to ad hominem arguments.

To sit here and sincerely say you think people truly believe Bitcoin Cash's name is bcash is what is disengenious.

To me when someone mentions bcash I automatically think of the zcash forked altcoin. I have always since the fork defaulted to bcash being the forked zcash altcoin. Not Bitcoin Cash (BCH). Bitcoin Cash is and never has been officially referred to as bcash by any Bitcoin Cash protocol developers or miners. At best it's a logical fallacy that was made up in attempt to discredit Bitcoin Cash users in a malicious way.

Also you seem to make the assumption that we remove all statements that include the word 'bcash', this is incorrect. As you can see from this screen shot, linked here, there are many publicly visible posts in /r/btc mentioning bcash. So your implication that we remove posts anytime someone mentions 'bcash' is completely false.

But when there are posts that just say "bcash hahahaha" and nothing else then I assume they are speaking about the zcash forked altcoin. If there is no context or anything, the default is that it's about zcash which doesn't belong in a Bitcoin-related only sub. I hope that clears it up for you. I also hope that you will now go to /r/bitcoin and condemn their massive censorship campaigns going on for 3 years now.

pondjohn
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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:37 am

It's not disengenious. I will tell you why.

From the start of the Bitcoin Cash (BCH) split from Bitcoin Core (BTC) in mid-2017, a new altcoin was proposed called bcash, which is a fork of zcash. At the same time, /r/bitcoin and others (such as Adam Back, Blockstream, etc) also started to call Bitcoin Cash "bcash" as a way to disparage it, since they have no other real technical problems with it and only resort to ad hominem arguments.

To sit here and sincerely say you think people truly believe Bitcoin Cash's name is bcash is what is disengenious.

To me when someone mentions bcash I automatically think of the zcash forked altcoin. I have always since the fork defaulted to bcash being the forked zcash altcoin. Not Bitcoin Cash (BCH). Bitcoin Cash is and never has been officially referred to as bcash by any Bitcoin Cash protocol developers or miners. At best it's a logical fallacy that was made up in attempt to discredit Bitcoin Cash users in a malicious way.

Also you seem to make the assumption that we remove all statements that include the word 'bcash', this is incorrect. As you can see from this screen shot, linked here, there are many publicly visible posts in /r/btc mentioning bcash. So your implication that we remove posts anytime someone mentions 'bcash' is completely false.

But when there are posts that just say "bcash hahahaha" and nothing else then I assume they are speaking about the zcash forked altcoin. If there is no context or anything, the default is that it's about zcash which doesn't belong in a Bitcoin-related only sub. I hope that clears it up for you. I also hope that you will now go to /r/bitcoin and condemn their massive censorship campaigns going on for 3 years now.
Let's look at facts. You say bcash the zcash fork was created in mid-2017. However the the article you link to announcing it is from 5 August 2017, AFTER the 1 August hard fork that created BCH.

A quick look at the twitter and github pages show both were created even later (December 2017), and there has been no activity at all on this 'bcash' other than an announcement of its existence at the exact moment it became politically helpful to be able to use as propaganda. Links:
https://twitter.com/bcash_coin
https://github.com/bcash-coin

There has been no fork or development, the repository is dead. This is because it is all retrospectively created 'evidence' to add an allure of credibility to your insistence that bcash is not a legitimate name. I know this, you know this, it is obvious to everybody. You don't care about the deception because in your eyes the ends justify the means. To sit there and say you believe bcash is a credible pre-existing fork that you think people are referring to is staggeringly disingenuous.

It's the same sort of hypocrisy that allows you to get upset when people use the name bcash, but with a straight face use the name Bitcoin Core to refer to Bitcoin knowing full well that is the name of a client software, and not a widely adopted terminology or even one that makes any sense (especially when arguing that bcash is misleading because its already a name that referred to something different).

Here is the content of the post I linked to that you removed:
Title: PSA: if you send bcash altcoins – or any other fake Bitcoin – to a Bitcoin address at ROOM77 (as has happened) we will not only NOT honor that transaction as a payment but we will also NOT recover your altcoins for you.

In order to recover your altcoins we would need to install software we cannot trust on our system and expose our private keys to that software. This is never gonna happen.

In case you are a victim of the bcash scam we are sorry for your loss and recommend you complain to the people who scammed you into buying fake Bitcoin.

In case you are one of these scammers trying to trick merchants into installing untrustworthy software this way: go fuck yourself!
Are you going to sit there and pretend to be serious that you thought this was referring to a zcash fork?

This was a credible post from the operator of a Bitcoin business with content that undermined your agenda. You removed it PURELY for political purposes. Even Roger has accepted it shouldn't have been censored. Care to provide an explanation?

/r/bitcoin is open about its moderation policies. You call them censorship and hold yourself to a higher standard, so less of this 'whataboutism', answer to your censorship and hypocrisy?

Fun accompanying video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:20 pm

Are you going to sit there and pretend to be serious that you thought this was referring to a zcash fork?
I already explained the rationale behind it, if you choose to not accept it that is on you. As I already pointed out, we have allowed many (maybe hundreds over the past year) of "bcash" posts. We don't censor. But if at times there were posts that appeared to be about the zcash forked altcoin, it was handled as such. You're basically telling me to believe all the /r/bitcoin propaganda about Bitcoin Cash legitimately being named "bcash" which again I say to you is extremely disingenuous and laughable at best.

Now, where is your condemnation of /r/bitcoin mass-censorship for the past 3 years?

Where is the public mod logs for /r/bitcoin?

Good day, sir!

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:25 pm

already explained the rationale behind it, if you choose to not accept it that is on you.
For the avoidance of all doubt, are you claiming that you deleted the post referenced above because you genuinely believed it was referring to an obscure, never implemented zcash fork? In all seriousness, that is what you want to publicly state was your interpretation of the above quoted post? Think carefully. Here's a reminder:
PSA: if you send bcash altcoins – or any other fake Bitcoin – to a Bitcoin address at ROOM77 (as has happened) we will not only NOT honor that transaction as a payment but we will also NOT recover your altcoins for you.

In order to recover your altcoins we would need to install software we cannot trust on our system and expose our private keys to that software. This is never gonna happen.

In case you are a victim of the bcash scam we are sorry for your loss and recommend you complain to the people who scammed you into buying fake Bitcoin.

In case you are one of these scammers trying to trick merchants into installing untrustworthy software this way: go fuck yourself!
On the lives of your family, can you swear you read the above content and thought to yourself "hey, that must mean the zcash fork, better remove it!" Please answer the simple question.

And again with the 'whataboutery'. Public mod logs are utterly meaningless if you're censoring posts and also logging it then just deflecting and refusing to provide justification when challenged.

I am not a representative of /r/bitcoin, but they have a moderation policy that discussion of hard fork altcoins is removed, and they openly do that. You are supposed to be taking the moral high ground, so why keep deflecting to them?

You in this very thread state: "We certainly never remove anything simply because the person wrote something that isn't in line with what a moderator might perceive Bitcoin to be, which is exactly what /r/bitcoin does.".

I'm showing that you're literally removing posts because you don't want your perception of Bitcoin to be also be referred to as bcash.

This is the height of hypocrisy. It's patently obvious to anyone reading your avoidance on this topic. you might save some dignity by admitting you censored the post because you didn't like the use of the expression bcash and it harmed your agenda, but you've tangled yourself into a web of lies by reiterating you genuinely believed it was discussion of a zcash fork.

pondjohn
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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:54 pm

Good day, sir!
You've gone suspiciously quiet when called out on your hypocrisy. Come on, do the right thing, don't hide, own being held accountable and have some integrity?!
I don't think the second post should have been deleted.
By any objective standard, BTC is the coin stealing the Bitcoin name, and BCH is the real Bitcoin.
Come on Roger, you were calling out Samson Mow for running away from debate the other day, you got half way there with this comment. Will you concede that this censorship on /r/btc is wrong and hypocritical?

Also, answer how hashrate and market value and even common parlance aren't objective measures?

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Re: My open letter to Adam Back regarding /r/Bitcoin Censorship

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:24 pm

For the avoidance of all doubt, are you claiming that you deleted the post referenced above because you genuinely believed it was referring to an obscure, never implemented zcash fork? In all seriousness, that is what you want to publicly state was your interpretation of the above quoted post?
I have explained this to you twice already, but you apparently choose not to accept my logical explanation. If you are just blatantly not accepting anything I'm saying then why would I bother to explain it to you a third time? That is just insanity. I have stated my case, which is common sense and provable (as linked to above). But your bias is getting in the way of you understanding it, so there is nothing I can do about that.

About your deflection comment, I am not deflecting. Deflecting would be not answering your questions and then going on about something else to try to change the subject. I have answered your questions, and in addition, posed questions to you - which funny enough - you have yet to answer! Now that is deflection, kind sir.

I see you commented again after your other comment saying 'where have you guys gone'. Let me state for the record we are busy changing the world, bringing peer-to-peer electronic cash to the planet for everyone to use. So yeah, we're busy and aren't going to be here responding to your every whim every time you say something. This will be my last response to you actually, because I'm busy and don't have time to play these games anymore. I have answered your questions with logic and reason and unfortunately you chose to not accept it. Have a nice day.

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